Transcript · 文字实录

冯欣：北京铁路局预计，将有46万旅客在1月19日，即春节前四天，从北京的各个车站出发，达到2012春运高峰。

Feng Xin: The Beijing Railway Bureau said they expect to have 460,000 passengers traveling from Beijing's stations on Jan 19, exactly four days before the Chinese New Year. The stations have reached their peak of the 2012 Chinese New Year transportation, or "chunyun" in Chinese.

从1月8日开始，春运将会持续到二月中旬。有人说，为期四十天的春运是每年世界上最大的人类迁徙。有上亿人会乘坐火车翻山越岭，与家人团聚欢庆春节。有的人在火车站昼夜排队，只为买到一张火车票, 有的人则根本无法买到车票。

Starting from Jan 8, "chunyun" will last until mid-February. Some say the 40-day "chunyun" is the largest annual human migration on earth. Hundreds of millions of people travel across the country by train to reunite with their families for New Year celebrations. Some spend days and nights in line at the train station to get a single ticket, but others are never able to get on a train home.

与往年不同的是，今年乘客可以第一次通过网络购买车票。但网络购票系统多大程度上能缓解购票的压力？再进一步探究：中国的春运如何成了一个问题？

What's new this year, however, is passengers can buy train tickets online for the first time. To what extent can the e-ticket system relieve the transportation stress? To go even further: How has China's "chunyun" become an issue?

记者：老家在哪里？

Reporter: Where are you from?

记者：在安徽

Reporter: Anhui.

旅客：徐州

Passenger: Xuzhou.

旅客：哈尔滨

Passenger: Harbin.

旅客：老家在江苏

Passenger: I'm from Jiangsu province.

旅客：我老家在哈尔滨

Passenger: My hometown's Harbin.

旅客：我就是北京的，去他姨夫家，是青岛

Passenger: I'm from Beijing. We're going to my cousin's in Qingdao.

记者：是怎么买到票的？

Reporter: How did you get your ticket?

旅客：刚来买的时候，就是先定，然后再过来拿。一开始的时候就想从网上直接定。但是网页根本就刷不开，说无法进入，然后就跑到附近的代售点去定。

Passenger：I booked the ticket first and then came to pick it up at the station. At first, I wanted to book the ticket online, but I couldn't even open the webpage. So I went to a ticket agency nearby to book one.

旅客：代票窗口，在回龙观。身份证都聚在一块，一个人一个身份证，给他就能买到了。

Passenger: From a ticket agency in Huilongguan. We collected everyone's IDs, one ID for each ticket, and we got our tickets.

记者：您买到票了吗？

Reporter：Have you got a ticket?

旅客：没有

Passenger: No.

记者：为什么还没有买到呢？

Reporter：Why?

旅客：反正我电话也打了，网也上了，都没买着。我寻思上着来排队，排队窗口直接告诉我没有票，我现在没有办法了。因为我媳妇还怀孕了，坐飞机还走不了，我现在都不知道怎么弄。

Passenger：I tried to buy by phone and online, but none worked. Then I thought maybe I could line up and buy ticket here at the train station, but the ticket office told me there were no tickets at all. I don't know what to do now. Since my wife is pregnant, we can't travel by plane. I have no idea what I am going to do next.

旅客：我们提前有八九天买的票。就是从卖票的网点买的

Passenger: We bought our tickets eight or nine days ahead from a ticket agency.

旅客：我是用了三个电话和两台电脑，两台电脑还是不同的网络。

Passenger: I used three phones and two computers with different Internet service providers.

记者：如果让你用一个词来形容春运，你会用什么词？

Reporter：How would you describe "chunyun" in one word?

旅客：人满为患

Passenger：Packed.

旅客：说不出来

Passenger：Don't know how.

旅客：无奈了

Passenger：Helpless.

旅客：挺高兴的

Passenger：Happy.

旅客：累

Passenger：Tired.

旅客：我觉得用什么词都很难以形容。太纠结了，就用纠结来形容吧。

Passenger：I find no words can describe it. It's too tangled. You can just call it tangled.

冯欣：根据国家发改委的数据，今年的春运将会有31亿人次出行，较去年增长9%。铁道部也预计将会有2.35亿人次在春运期间乘火车出行，较2011年增长6%。然而不仅仅是旅客需要面对运输压力，铁路部门的工作人员也是如此。

Feng Xin：According to China's National Reform and Planning Commission, Chinese people will be making 3.1 billion trips during this year's "chunyun" – a 9 percent increase from last year. The Ministry of Railways also estimates 235 million people are traveling by train during the New Year travel rush – 6 percent more than 2011. But it's not only passengers who have to battle the transportation stress; those who work on trains face just as much pressure.

单是北京的火车站就临时增加了7000余名员工参与春运工作。王选春是北京到平壤列车的车长，他经历过31年的春运。

Beijing's train stations alone have temporarily added more than 7,000 staff members to work for the New Year travel rush. Wang Xuanchun is the conductor of a train from Beijing to Pyongyang. He has been working during "chunyun" for 31 years.

冯欣：在春运前您都要做哪些准备工作呢？

Feng Xin：How did you prepare for "chunyun"?

王选春：首先今年的春运和往年不一样，一个实名制开始了。对于旅客来说，买票上网也很难，所以上来车以后，旅客怨气很大，有时候跟我们发脾气，我们主张乘务员不要发脾气，首先旅客第一，咱们把旅客放在第一。班组要求每个职工发现老弱病残都要主动去迎送。

Wang Xuanchun: There's something new about this year's "chunyun". An identification card is required for buying tickets. Honestly, it's pretty hard for passengers to buy a ticket online. So when they get on the train, they are frustrated. Sometimes they will lose their temper on us. We told our crew members not to get angry. Passengers are our priority. We asked our crew members when seeing someone in need to offer help immediately.

冯欣：孙剑的职务是列车机动人员，负责处理火车上各类紧急情况。

Feng Xin: Sun Jian works as a flexible crew member who is responsible for dealing with various emergencies on the train.

冯欣：在春运期间，您作为工作人员最担心发生什么？

Feng Xin：As a crew member, what's your biggest concern during "chunyun"?

孙剑：最担心的，像我们这辆车就是车门还有上水口。车运行一晚上，必须得保证有水，旅客喝水这是最大的。因为这车是往东北去的，冬天气温比较冷，外面注水口注完之后，它就要冻。一冻之后，水压顶不上去了，就全部冻死了。

Sun Jian: I'm most concerned about the doors and the water tank's opening. We have to make sure there's enough water for passengers at night. This is most important..The train is heading to Northeast China, and it is freezing there. When we finish filling the tank with water, the opening will freeze very quickly. Once it's frozen, the water pressure will be low, and the water will freeze.

冯欣：据铁道部的数字，在春运的四十天中，每天将会有两千多对列车运行，比平常多出近300对，但是，为什么春运还是如此之难呢？我们采访了两位多年参与中国主要铁路工程的学者。我们从最基本的问题开始：春运到底是什么？

Feng Xin: According to the Ministry of Railways, more than 2,000 pairs of trains are operating daily during the 40-day "chunyun" – almost 300 more than usual. But why is "chunyun" still a big hassle? We talked to two scholars who have been taking part in China's major railway projects for decades. We began with the most basic question: What exactly is "chunyun"?

韩宝明：春运在铁路上有一个专门的期限，从春节之前的15天还有之后的25天，总共40天的时间，铁路(部门)采取一个特殊的运输组织方案，要最大限度地去满足旅客运输的需求，那么在这个期间会把大量的货物列车停开，保证旅客列车的运输。

Han Baoming: "Chunyun" is a specific time period in railway transportation. It starts from 15 days before the Chinese New Year and ends 25 days after. It lasts for 40 days. The railway department adopts a special plan for transportation organization to maximize its transportation capacity. So during the peak time many cargo trains are suspended to guarantee the operation of passenger trains.

冯欣：那我们大家都在讲这个春运难，这个难在什么地方呢？

Feng Xin：We all say that "chunyun" is a big hassle. What's difficult about it?

韩宝明：难主要是难在运能和需求之间的矛盾，因为我们现在既使是做了这样的调整，铁道部加开了几百趟临客列车，我们每天的运输能力也只有700万多人，极端的高峰会到800万人。700万人的供给和短时间内上亿人的需求，它是无法去比拟的。

Han Baoming: The main difficulty is the conflict between transportation capacity and demand. Though we have made adjustments, the Ministry of Railways has temporarily added hundreds of passenger trains. The maximum capacity is only 7 million passengers per day, or 8 million during extreme rush time. To meet hundreds of millions of people's demands, the capacity is just too small.

冯欣：为什么铁路是特别突出的一块呢？

Feng Xin: And why is railway transportation a particularly difficult problem？

韩宝明：因为春节正好是赶在冬季，公路运输的波动性很大。如果是某个地区下雪，或者是出现一些异常天气，公路运输无法正常进行的时候，大家把期望值就全部转移到铁路上，可是铁路是无法承担这么大的运量的。我们现在的运量结构，大概全国客运市场中公路应该占到90%左右，铁路占9%，航空占到1%左右，当然水运在局部地区它有一定的运量。在这个量级比例上，可以想象，如果出现在08年出现的这种南方冰雪天气，公路无法运行的时候，那么铁路是无论如何满足不了要求的。

Han Baoming: Since the Chinese New Year falls in winter, road transportation presents many uncertainties. If it snows in some areas, or the weather conditions are bad, road transportation cannot function normally. So people would turn to railways, but the railway capacity is not big enough. Let's look at the structure of our transportation capacity: Road transportation accounts for 90 percent nationwide; railways account for 9 percent, and airline 1 percent. Water transportation, of course, also contributes a certain capacity. Based on this proportion, you can imagine that if the 2008 snow disaster in South China happens again, and the road transportation cannot function well, it's impossible for railways to meet transportation demand.

冯欣：刚才您讲到这个运能的缺口，那每天大概有多少人是买不到火车票回家的？这个您有没有估计过？

Feng Xin: You just mentioned the capacity gap. Can I ask how many people cannot get a ticket home everyday? Have you ever estimated this?

韩宝明：这种需求是弹性的，有人可能说想回家探亲，买不到票他就不回去了。这种需求，说实话，还真没有一个机构去给它做一个估算。对每条线也不一样，不同的方向有不一样的需求，不能一概而论全国缺多少，我能（提供）多少。

Han Baoming: The demand is flexible. Some may just not go home, if he or she cannot get a ticket. To be frank, no one has ever estimated it. And every railway line is different. There are different demands on different lines. You cannot generally say how large the nationwide shortage is and how much capacity can be provided.

冯欣：那春运难现象到底是怎么形成的？

Feng Xin: And how has "chunyun" become a problem?

韩宝明：刚才是讲的需求，现在就要说供给。比如说，对于一个企业来说，它如果按最大值去配备它的生产能力，它在平常就会闲置。比如说，一个长途客运公司，正常（情况下）我就配100辆车，这100辆车你全部投入使用，没有检修，那它也满足不了要求。那有可能，打个比方说，应该是到180辆车，那180辆车，它平常的客流没那么大，有80辆车就在家里放着，人员也得养着。这种情况，从经济方面，从企业方面，也是个难题。

Han Baoming: We just talked about demand; now I am going to talk about supply. Let's say, for a company, if it designs its production capacity to its maximum, it will be a waste in normal days. Say a long-distance bus company has 100 buses during normal time. If the 100 buses are all put in use without maintenance, the demand cannot be met anyway. Maybe the company has to have 180 buses, for example, to meet the demand. While the demand is not that big on ordinary days, the 80 buses will have to stay at home. And the company has to pay for the workers. So it is a puzzle both in cost-efficiency and the industry.

冯欣：运能和效益的关系也许世界通用，那中国又特殊在哪呢？

Feng Xin: Whereas the relationship between cost-efficiency and travel capacity might be universal, what's unique about China?

冯欣：每个国家都有自己的节假日, 为什么中国的春运被称作世界上最大的人类迁徙？

Feng Xin: Every country has its own holidays and festivals, why is China's New Year transportation called the world's largest human mobilization in a year?

赵坚：中国的人口是世界上最多的，发展速度也是最快的，所以越来越多的农民进城务工寻求机会，这是一个原因。另外一个原因是城市化，在中国，我们对农村人定居在城市，比如“户口”的限制，这让很多人很难定居在城市。在春节期间，他们就会回家乡与家人团聚，这是城市化的问题。

Zhao Jian: China's population is the largest in the world. And the development speed is number one in the world. So more people, especially the farmers, will go out to choose new opportunities. So this is one reason. Another is the urbanization problem. In China, we have many constraints on people to live in the city. Because we have "hukou", for example. So, this constraint makes some people cannot live in the city. During the Chinese New Year, they will go home to reunite with their other family members. This is one problem of urbanization.

另一个问题是铁路运输能力，中国越来越多地建设了高速铁路，而不是既有铁路（普通铁路）。春节期间，很多人需要乘坐普通列车，因为它更便宜。高铁是为商务人士或旅游者而建的，很多人不需要高铁或高速，他们甚至认为普通列车太贵了。在珠江三角洲，有的人甚至骑摩托回家。

Another is the railway transportation capacity. China has built more high-speed rails but not conventional rails. During the Chinese New Year, many people demand the conventional train, because it's cheaper. High-speed railways were built for businessmen or travelers. So, (many people) don't want to use the high-speed rail. They even think the conventional train is too expensive. Some people, especially in the Pearl River Delta, go home by motorcycle.

冯欣：今年春运首逢网络购票，您认为在多大程度上，网络购票能缓解春运期间购票的压力？

Feng Xin: This year is the first year where people can book tickets online during the Chinese New Year transportation. To what extent, do you think this approach will relieve the pressure of buying tickets during that busy time?

赵坚：我认为有一些作用，但是很有限。问题的关键不是票而是运能，因为在这些线路上没有足够的列车，没有足够的票。即使人们可以在网上或订票点买票，情况是一样的。所以网购的作用非常有限。

Zhao Jian: It has some function, but I think it is very limited. The problem right now is not the tickets but capacity, because there are no trains operating on this line. It's because there are not enough tickets for people to buy. So even (though) people can buy online or book from the ticket office, it's the same. It can solve some problems, but it is very limited.

在我们现有的铁路上，每天每条线单向最多能运行150次列车，不能再多了。

On our railway, each day, in one direction, can only operate –the maximum capacity is 150 trains operating on it. You cannot operate too many.

冯欣：为什么呢？

Feng Xin: And why?

赵坚：因为每辆列车之间必须有一些时间间隔，如果间隔过小，列车就会相撞，所以不能运行再多的列车。

Zhao Jian: Because there must be some time gap between each train. If the time difference is too small, they will crash. So, you cannot operate more trains on it.

冯欣：根据这个说法，光是增加列车的数目，并不能从根本上解决运能不足的问题，那为什么这个问题多年来一直没有解决呢？

Feng Xin: It seems that adding more trains cannot fundamentally increase China's railway transportation capacity, but why hasn't the problem been solved over the years?

韩宝明：实际上，近十年，中国的交通发展是最快的，铁路我们现在已经达到了9万多公里，原来的数据一直是7万多，增加了2万公里。每年铁路的客运能力以10%的速度增加，不是说我们不努力，而是这种需求太强劲，所以造成现在这种矛盾还是存在。

Han Baoming: In fact, China has made tremendous development in transportation over the last 10 years. We have built more than 90,000 kilometers of railways, whereas we used to have only 70,000 kilometers. Railway transportation capacity makes a 10 percent increase every year. It's not that we are not working hard enough, but the demand is too high. So we still have the conflict between capacity and demand.

冯欣：那这种矛盾有没有解决的可能性？

Feng Xin: Is it possible to address such conflict?

韩宝明：我想要解决这个问题，确实是需要从国家，行业和我们民众几个层面分别去进行努力。第一个层面，对于这个春节的假期，其实最难的就是最后几天的这个放假需求。我记得在前几年我们放假都是从初一才开始放，三十还要上班。就是说，这些想回家的人，他就必须在最后一天才能出行，现在把这个假期延伸到了三十。如果说国家的假期进一步优化，比如说前二后五，或者说国家将来有进一步考虑对公共假期的数量进行调整的时候，应该优先增加春节的时间，这样会使得春节运输之间的矛盾的集中点，给它舒缓。

Han Baoming: To solve the problem, I think we need to work on several aspects, including the country, industry and public. Firstly, the toughest days during "chunyun" are the last few days before the new year. I remember we used to start our holiday on New Year's Day. We still had to work on New Year's Eve. That is to say, those who want to go home cannot leave work until the last day before the new year. Now we start the holiday on New Year's Eve. What if we further optimize our holidays, like we start holidays two days before New Year's Day, or the government prioritizes New Year holidays when considering adjusting the number of public holidays? This would relieve the concentration of transport stress during Chinese New Year.

韩宝明：第二个层面，就是铁路的客运专线建设和高速铁路的建设。从08年第一条线开通到现在，已经有十几条线投入了运营，但是现在的线路都是局部的，没有成网的，那么在这个条件下，它能发挥的作用还是比较有限的，如果在今后的一到两年内，客运专线几个主要的干线能够连网，实现跨线运输，而大量的客车在这个时候可以开行，那么对春节运输是一个非常好的消息。

Han Baoming: The second aspect has to do with our development in high-speed railway. We have put more than a dozen lines in operation since 2008. But all the lines are separate, not in a network. Therefore, their effects are still limited. If we can, in the next a couple of years, connect the few major lines into a network and make cross-line transportation a reality, most passenger trains will be able to operate on these lines. This would be a very good approach to "chunyun".

冯欣：我听到一种批评的声音，说高速铁路面向的主要是收入比较高的人群，能够负担得起的这个高速列车车票的人。但是大部分选择用火车出行的人一般都是中低端收入的人群，比如说农民工、学生等等。那么正因为如此，高速列车并不是很吸引这个庞大的人群，那么对这个观点您怎么看？

Feng Xin: I heard a critical voice that high-speed rail (transportation) is aimed at high-income people –those who can afford high-speed train tickets. However, most people who choose to commute by train are mid- to low-income groups, like migrant workers and students. Because of this, high-speed trains do not appeal to these major groups. What do you think of this?

韩宝明：您说的，确实高速铁路的建设成本非常高，那么在铁路经营方面，它的票价定的相对比既有线的要高。中等收入这部分人群，他首先考虑的是能不能有票，至于票价，尤其在春节期间，假如说高铁有票，那么既有线的票不够，他还是会往这个方向去选。所以高铁的能力释放以后，它会使得相当一部分人——原来没有办法，只能坐既有铁路的火车的他转向（高铁）。转向高铁以后，无形中也给既有铁路的线路上多出来一些票，可以供其他人去买。我们一直在讲，交通运输里边，哪怕是你调整一块钱，也一定会使得客流发生转移。

Han Baoming: Like you said, the cost of high-speed railways is very high, so their tickets are more expensive than conventional trains. For mid-income groups, the first thing they consider is whether there are tickets. Price – especially during "chunyun" if there are no conventional train tickets but only high-speed ones, (people) will still choose the latter. Therefore, once high-speed railways release their transportation capacity, a considerable number of people, who could only catch conventional trains, will turn to high-speed trains. Because of the shift, there will be more tickets available on conventional lines for others to buy. In the field of transportation, even if you just adjust it by one yuan, it will still shift passenger flow.

冯欣：长期来看，学者们提出了解决春运问题不同的办法。

Feng Xin:Yet in the long run, scholars propose different solutions to solving the "chunyun" problem.

赵坚：有两个办法。一个是允许农民和他们的家庭在城市定居，比如在北京、上海、广州这样的城市，加快城市化的进程，这是一个办法。另外一个办法是建设更多的既有线路，即时速不超过200公里的线路，（因为）普通列车不能在高速铁路上运行，而高铁的运能又没有普通列车大。到2020年，我认为中国应该至少建成16万公里铁路，但是根据国家的规划只有13万（应为12万）公里，这是不够的。

Zhao Jian：Two methods. One is to allow the peasants and their family to live in the big cities, for example, Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou. So the urbanization increases the size of the city. This is one answer. Another is to build more conventional lines. The speed standard is no more (than) 200 kilometers per hour. The conventional passenger trains cannot operate on the high-speed rails, and the transportation capacity of high-speed rails is less than the conventional railways. (By) 2020, I think China should at least build 160,000 kilometers, but, according to the government planning, (it plans to build) only about 130,000（correction: 120,000）kilometers. It's not enough for China.

韩宝明：利用社会资源，社会力量，把运力不足的矛盾（进行）有效的补充。去年有一部分企业, 用单位自己的车辆，把相对集中的一些民工给送到家乡，然后承诺等你们过了十五想回来的时候，我再来接你们。但是如果说，我们把这个组织（一下），不是一个单位去送，而是把这个单位、多个单位的车辆向多个地区去输送，组织好。

Han Baoming: We can use community resources to shorten the gap between transportation capacity and demand. Last year, some companies gave their migrant workers rides home with their own vehicles. They promised to pick them up after the 15th day of the New Year. What if we organize many companies rather than one? What if we give migrant workers rides home to different destinations rather than one?

Archive · 往期

Digest China: Year 2011 in quotes
《解析中国》：2011语录

We put together 10 most-quotable interview segments to "digest" the year 2011.
《解析中国》年终特辑——十段最精彩的访谈语录。

To help, or not to help?

When you see a person badly injured in the middle of the road, what do you do? That decision is becoming more difficult in China after some people who offered help were falsely accused of injuring the person in need.

Can law protect your mental health?

How do psychiatrists maintain their own mental health? And what do they think of the drafted Mental Health Law? For this week's Digest China, host Feng Xin invites two psychiatrists to the studio.

On the spectrum: China's mental health conditions

The National People's Congress just finished collecting opinions on passing China's first Mental Health Law. How is China's mental health in general? And how the legislation might impact you?

Should China "rescue" Europe?

Europe is experiencing a financial crisis. Many people have turned their eyes to China, but what does this crisis have to do with China? What role is China playing? For this week's Digest China, we come to Brussels to meet two guests.

Digest China: Powerful kids - Part 2

Last week we visited a Chinese elementary school in Beijing and talked to a few 9- to 10-year-old children about taking power as student leaders at school. For this week, we visit an international school and see what children do differently.

Powerful kids - Part 1

Having a system of a class monitor and some little ministers in charge of different aspects of school life is common in China. The host Feng Xin and her producer come to one school in Beijing and talk to some powerful kids.

"Micro-charity" serves up free lunch

Nearly 10,000 children who live in China's poor countryside will no longer have to starve when they go to school, thanks to one man's micro-blogging, which turned into a nationwide charity program in just a few days.